Ishmael Community Guestbook

It really pisses me off that in the general global debate right now about the price of food and the future of food consumption, they just keep reverting to how and where to produce more food!

Only very few people ever link the population explosion to the present quagmire. And nobody ever questions food aid..

Is the tiptop of the human construction we call the global political economy a place from which leadership can gain a reality-oriented view of what is happening on the surface of the Earth? Perhaps those of us at the top of the global economic pyramid are living in a secluded, unmaintainable material world of our own making and are willfully refusing to accept the limitations of the natural world in which the rest of the family of humanity lives.

If it turns out that the conspicuous consumption and relentless hoarding of the rich, the famous and the powerful are evidence of unsustainable lifestyles, what is the human community to do differently? Perhaps necessary change is in the offing.

Steven Earl Salmony AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population, established 2001

Thanks Destry,

I hadn't heard of PostSecret until I read your post. I do like the idea. The time for secret keeping has long since passed ... it's time for the secrets to be deployed.

Let me paraphrase your comments of Question (ID Number 673: People develop "sedentarism," and civilization because they can; not as a response to living poorly (or as a response to living well). Creation of food surpluses is prerequisite to the creation of a sedentary lifestyle, which is prerequisite to the creation of civilizations.

Ryan, congratulations on your 77! It's great to see someone else from Canada posting here.

I just wanted to say thank you for your writing. I haven't reached a million yet, but according to the sales statistics at the book store I work at, I've reached at least 77 people (that's how many people I've sold Ishmael to since January). It's possibly the only part of my life that currently makes me feel as though I may be making a difference.

Thank you.

Hi all, I sometimes like to add my own comments to DQ's answers, just to try and deepen my own understanding (for some reason i HAVE to articulate things myself to really get them :)

I hope i went a useful direction here.

The Question (ID Number 673)... (you may want to read this first.)

So it appears people don’t develop sedentarism and civilizations as a response to living poorly but, rather, as a result of living very easily. People don’t organize themselves into civilizations in order to make excesses. It’s the opposite: ONLY people who already have access to excesses can begin to make civilizations (and very few peoples with access to excesses have ever bothered to accumulate them.)

Changing our whole agricultural system is a huge step. I think that instead of taking this leap all at once, we need to practice sustainable agriculture in our own home first. if every person had their own garden, then the big businesses would cease to have power over the way our society is set up.

Nathan,

Have you ever heard of PostSecret? It's this art project started by Frank Warren wherein he publishes artistic postcards sent to him from around the world, on which people have written a secret they've never told anyone. This kindof sounds like the opposite of your style --- sharing your "worst" moments with us here, but I think you'd like it.

I'm going to leave my copy (pilfered, btw) laying around for others to fill up and (hopefully) mail in to frank. One of the confessions I added says "I identify most with a fictional character named Jeffery who walked himself into a lake."

So now, I guess, you and I are identifying. You know, I don't know if it was Chomsky or whoever, but somehow in college I learned that keeping people feeling alone is the most effective way we're kept disempowered. You just have to make sure and teach children not to talk about their most sensitive experiences and Voila!, you have a society full of isolates who feel that only those in power matter.

Anyway, good form "properly" introducing yourself. I may play copycat here soon.

No, although I like that one quite a bit, too.

This one:

Ah the laughter of the lovers As they run through the night Leaving nothing for the others But to choose off and fight And tear at the world with all their might While the ships bearing their dreams Sail out of sight

and

Say a prayer for the pretender Who started out so young and strong Only to surrender

Running on - running on empty Running on - running blind Running on - running into the sun But I'm running behind

This one? Sam

Brigitte,

That was one of your best posts ever. Thank you.

Mike,

You've touched a chord in several of us, it seems. It stimulates a flurry of thoughts and feelings in me, but I'm not as articulate as I'd like to be. Suffice it to say that you're not alone.

[sigh] I'm sad. Not unhappy, just kind of sad. It seems I've felt that way for a long time now. Feeling that there's little anyone -- let alone me -- can do to stem the momentum of our juggernaut, the best I can hope for is to enjoy the moment, but I kind of suck at that, too.

What was that song again? The one by Jackson Browne?

L-

Hi,

After reading recent posts, I've decided I'd like to introduce myself properly.

I first read Ishmael when I was in grade twelve. I've often thought of Daniel Quinn as the Bob Dylan of my generation, because of the way Ishmael seemed to articulate everything I wanted to say, but couldn't say. My strongest feeling after reading Ishmael was a sense of vindication.

I liked My Ishmael even better than Ishmael, especially the story of Jeffrey, and the "It Isnt Me!" part. This was because I was seriously depressed about the state of the world, and the people I tried to talk to would tell me that I was 'taking a victim stance', or that I just needed to 'deal with my issues and stop being so much in my head', or that 'wanting to save the world is a stage you go through when you are young. When you are older you realize that all is one, and there is no struggle.' My Ishmael helped me to get free of that kind of thinking. It didn't stop me from becoming more depressed and attempting suicide though.

Actually, the book helped me to be okay with my depression and my decision to commit suicide. Contrary to popular belief, suicide is not an act of cowardice, it takes a lot of courage. Strangely (or perhaps predictably), things turned around after my suicide attempt. It's sort of like this: I was always saying that I would rather die than participate in the Taker Story, or that life in the Taker Prison was worse than death for me, but did I really have the courage to put my money where my mouth was, so to speak? After my suicide attempt, I knew. So it was something I had to do. I had to prove it to myself.

Just to be clear though, I don't recommend suicide attempts as a problem solving strategy. Also, no one who's reading this who hasn't read Daniel Quinn should think that Daniel Quinn encourages people to commit suicide: he most certainly does not; this is just my story.

Anyway, now that I have been through a suicide attempt I am immune to other people's pressures and manipulations, and immune to despair. So I am just doing what I feel I have to do, however unlikely I am to be successful. I still sometimes wish I had a quick and painless way to end my life readily available, just in case my life becomes unbearable again. But I am lucky, in that, like Jeffrey, I have supportive parents, who are not forcing me to go to school or get a job. I recently went back and read about six of Daniel Quinn's books, took care to make sure I really understood the ideas. And, I have started a Daniel Quinn discussion group in Edmonton - only four people in it so far, but still. So I guess I am sort of where most of you were several years ago - Quinn's ideas being new and central to my life. And in the "war" that is going on, I am definitely on the side of life, and will protect it at all costs.

So yeah. What does all this have to do with the current discussion? I don't know ... maybe nothing. Just thought I'd add my story to the mix.

Nathan

Mike,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I also became quite nostalgic lately, particularly when the food crisis around the world was being discussed in the most un-Quinnean way everywhere. All of a sudden I remembered all our discussions and tried to imagine what they would have been like when one of our core issues became the stuff everybody talks about. I missed the times when "we" would be discussing them here to the extent that I'd check the Guestbook every 30 minutes!.

These discussions lately all over the planet did confirm that what is going on is just insane. And their solutions are, as we know, insane. DQ was right, they are wrong, and they'll live to see it.

On a general note, I don't know about you, but I have the feeling that people are retreating more and more into their little shells, that there are generally fewer and fewer open profound (!! Forget the bubbles on myspace and whatever these formats are called) discussions - are they all playing computer games at home instead? I have no clue.

I actually think that the stress I sense in society at large is even bigger than when I first read DQ a decade ago. And it was quite palpable then no matter wher around the world, mind you.

Occasionally, no, actually often, I feel that I have ended up in the kind of sci-fi movie I didn't want to watch way back when. I changed channels or I just didn't go to see it in a movie theater. But now I am in the middle of it. Maybe I should have seen these movies at the time. But all these scenarios just sounded too depressing.

All that has become our reality in the meantime, that's how I feel. And I am observing all these youngsters who are embracing this reality. So far, protests are too few, although - at least in Europe - I get the feeling that many people dislike the way things are right now.

Since I guess that it's primarily the "generations who dislike this primate of the economy and money over everything else" (a novelty here in Europe!) and since our young ones have are being brought up to accept it, I feel very helpless.

Once "my" generation, the last one to be of the fighting kind right now IMVHO, will have left the stage, I can only hope for some future generation not yet visible over here to take over and carry the torch.

The ones I am watching right now in Europe just haven't got it - yet. Good for you if you happen to have them over in America, that would quick-start them over here.

Athena, Would love go "oldschool" and talk about the basics. And you're right, this particular forum does in fact proclaim itself to be "not a discussion board." But, whatever that statements purpose, it's certainly my impression that many parties concerned are more than happy to see learning and dialogue happen here. All the same, I've been giving out my email to many dozens of people I've encountered and engaged in "different thinking:" write iliketomeowatgmaildotcom if you would like to get in touch.

I'm impressed you picked up on the obviousness of the food dynamics right away: it took me years and many reads. Now, i finally notice the mythologies daniel articulated when they present themselves, like when Hillary proclaims that America's agribusiness --- and working yet harded to beef it up --- is one of her most absolute, primary concerns. Because the Hatians are starving. And of course, it makes no sense: no one's talking here about putting poor Hatians in a position to live well. We should just send over more shipments of food and hope that good things happen (and then fail to notice that what happens is precisely that there are just MORE starving Hatians).

please note the "at" and "dot" in the email address above--to thwart email harvesting programs. cheers! sam

Just finished reading Ishmael and found it so compelling. I found it refreshing to really consider our culture (I am a taker, living in the taker capital of the world, America)and spell out what it whispers to us. This really opened my eyes to why we do what we do, how much of that is based on assumption rather than fact. And how it's based on fear and therefore, even though we consume away and take the reigns from God we still have anxiety and restlessness. I find myself wanting to change our assumptions, to face our fears, to consider what our culture could be giving us that it's not and how to do something about it. I guess I'd like to know; since this book's debut, has a difference been made? Where are we with that difference and how would we even measure it? I've written a few heartfelt positive reviews but feel compelled to have a mainstream artist embrace this and write a hit song that gets everyone thinking! ;) I want the positive leaver culture and am trying to *invent*, as Ishmael advised! Thank you for educating and igniting me, Mr. Quinn.

Hi, Mike. It's good to "hear" from you, and I'm glad you chose to share what you are feeling. On the other hand, I'm sorry to find out that you're at loose ends in a town of people who all seem to have minds and guts tied up snugly in a Taker knot. That has to be difficult. I feel very fortunate to have a group of people I get together with regularly who see the world much the same way I do, though not exactly the same, and other friends who basically understand where I'm coming from though they haven't all been moved in the ways I've been by Quinn's work. The existence of that face-to-face group is one of the reasons why I dropped out of the Ishmael discussion list years and years ago--it was so much more satisfying to see people in person and build real, ongoing friendships with them. Most of my good friends are people I've met because of our Quinnian connection.

I also dropped out of Internet discussion of these ideas because it was so darn time-consuming. That was due in part to the fact that it was written communication--and I would go over and over my posts, revising them repeatedly--but mostly because plain text is so prone to fostering misunderstandings that get blown out of proportion. Oh, and 'net discussion seems to attract people who just really like to argue, too.

It's also true that I no longer feel the need to have the same sorts of "what did Quinn really mean by this, and how do we apply it to our lives?" conversations that I used to crave. Now, these ideas are simply part of me and they infuse lots of my conversations without giving it a thought.

I certainly haven't found blissful happiness through these ideas, but that would be an awful lot to hope for. Quinn couldn't teach us how to find lasting, healthy, loving relationships, how to make a living without selling our time to a pharaoh (though he tried in Beyond Civilization), how to remain happy despite the terrible cruelty and suffering and loss that's all around us, and so on. I haven't helped to create a new tribe (not yet, anyway) nor even found the love of my life. But what I did find through the inspiration of Quinn's work was purpose, and a way out of the dark depression I was in when I first read Ishmael. How's that? Quinn taught me that we are not humanity, that we arent' destroying the world because of human nature, and that enabled me to have hope that we could find sustainable ways to live despite the enormous challenges we face.

There's a book you might find valuable, as it was for me. It's titled The Happiness Hypothesis: Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom.

I think it's really important to keep in mind that, though things are certainly changing more slowly than I wish they were, I see signs of deep change afoot all around me. I'm provisionally confident that we are approaching a tipping point of social change, though there's no way to know if we'll hit it in time to achieve what one might call "saving the world." There are certainly ominous developments all around us, too, with rising energy prices, tightening supplies, rapid climate disruption, food rebellions in response to hunger, and so on.